Had you decided to make a film on the topic of sexual abuse in the Church, or did you find this specific story first and then build from there?
I think it was both. I read the piece by Laurie Goodstein (in the New York Times) and that convinced me, because it's not enough to have a subject that's important, but the reason it will make a good film. That story convinced me that it would make a good film, because the crime was so horrible, because it seemed there were heroes at the heart of it, these deaf guys, and because it led to a particular story that led all the way to the top.
Did you know going in that it would go so far, all the way to the current pope?
I did in a way, because one of the rationales for Goodstein's piece was that there were documents that connect the story in Milwaukee all the way to the current pope, to his years prior as a cardinal and to the coverup. That was a key piece of evidence. What I didn't know when I started was just how vast and how longstanding this cover-up has been. That really did surprise me.
One of the aspects of the film that was new and striking to me was the idea of the psychology that allows for people to accept and keep secret these kinds of abuses. Was that something new to you going into it?
It's something that's become increasingly interesting to me both in this film and a film ["We Steal Secrets: The Story of WikiLeaks"] that's coming out at Sundance -- this idea of noble cause corruption. The idea that it's not ironic that a priest would commit abuse or even cover it up more substantially -- it's part of the package. Predators sometimes hide in plain sight where they know they have access to victims, where their status puts them above reproach and because of their status the institution will protect them. And the Church says to itself, well, there's so much good that we do, we can't let a few bad apples get in the way of all that goodness -- so we better hush it up. In so doing they're committing a more unspeakable crime, which is when they know there's clear and present danger to children they not only close their eyes to that danger, they actually allow that danger to continue.
How do you see this film fitting in with the explorations of abuse of power that you've explored in your past work? It's become something of a theme for you.
It does seem like maybe it's time for me to do a romantic comedy. But maybe I'd find an abusive power relationship. It could be interesting. This one does have a lot of similarities, in structure and also in theme, with "Taxi to the Dark Side." [There's] one small incident, and by following the reverberations of that incident you go right to the very top. What you're doing is looking at the mechanism of power and how it is abused and how institutions become corrupted because they believe their own bullshit. They think the end justifies the means, so in that sense I think this one is quite similar from a structural perspective to "Taxi."
Do you see the idea the institutions can self-regulate as part of the problem?
Yes, I do. Look at Wall Street or Penn State or the Boy Scouts. Institutions can't self regulate because they're too imbued with their own sense of high purpose and rectitude. So we depend on other organizations for checks and balances to make sure they not only talk the talk but walk the walk. It should also sensitize all of us to look at what we all do at the institutions we work in, to see if there's some rumbling in our gut telling us that something's wrong.
When I did "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room," I talked to a lot of people, some of whom agreed to talk to me but not on film, off the record, and they all talked about this gnawing in their gut, this feeling that something was wrong. But they didn't listen and went right on by and in so doing they became caught up in the corruption that was the institution. Part of this is training for all of us. When you feel that something's wrong, it does pay to listen. Imagine if that guy who saw Jerry Sandusky abusing that kid in the shower had gone to the police instead of Joe Paterno.